@DRDMovieMusings said:

Robert Duvall played the cop tracking down Michael Douglas's meltdown in 1993's Falling Down. In the end, D-Fens is established as a bad guy, an entitled shmuck who falls apart after a series of life set backs finally break his back, as declared by Duvall's cop Prendergast. A key scene is when Vondie Curtis-Hall's "not economically viable" guy has a meltdown outside a bank - note he's dressed exactly like D-Fens, but D-Fens doesn't see the truth, does not see his reflection. Sh!t happens to "other" people a lot more than a guy like him, and they are judged by society, but when adversity strikes this dude, it's not supposed to strike him, so, sure, let's burn the whole world down. He followed the rules, and the rules are supposed to work for a "guy like him".

Well, let's just address the elephant in the room, shall we? D-Fens is a Caucasian male... often, a head trip goes with that. I would really say that D-Fens is decided or resolved to be the "bad guy" at the end of the film, not established as one.

Anyway, nine years later, Duvall is another cop trying to resolve another meltdown...but this time, John Quincey Archibald is our "John Q", again, a blue-collar everyman tossed like a cork on a system bigger than him, and he has a meltdown...but, in this story, he's not so much a shmuck as he is a more sympathetic character, as declared by Duvall's cop Grimes.

It's kind of funny that you wrote about John Q, simply because I find it to be one of the blander Denzel films out there in a big way. The gist of the storyline is John's little one's heart goes bad, so he will die. John decides to give his own heart to his son to save the son's life, and runs across a lot of red tape bullshit in trying to do so. So it's a societal conflict film.

The point of these flicks seems to be that if you step too far outside the parameters that society (a bunch of people trying to get by) lives by, you are the bad guy and you could be killed for it.

@CelluloidFan said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Robert Duvall played the cop tracking down Michael Douglas's meltdown in 1993's Falling Down. In the end, D-Fens is established as a bad guy, an entitled shmuck who falls apart after a series of life set backs finally break his back, as declared by Duvall's cop Prendergast. A key scene is when Vondie Curtis-Hall's "not economically viable" guy has a meltdown outside a bank - note he's dressed exactly like D-Fens, but D-Fens doesn't see the truth, does not see his reflection. Sh!t happens to "other" people a lot more than a guy like him, and they are judged by society, but when adversity strikes this dude, it's not supposed to strike him, so, sure, let's burn the whole world down. He followed the rules, and the rules are supposed to work for a "guy like him".

Well, let's just address the elephant in the room, shall we? D-Fens is a Caucasian male... often, a head trip goes with that. I would really say that D-Fens is decided or resolved to be the "bad guy" at the end of the film, not established as one.

Anyway, nine years later, Duvall is another cop trying to resolve another meltdown...but this time, John Quincey Archibald is our "John Q", again, a blue-collar everyman tossed like a cork on a system bigger than him, and he has a meltdown...but, in this story, he's not so much a shmuck as he is a more sympathetic character, as declared by Duvall's cop Grimes.

It's kind of funny that you wrote about John Q, simply because I find it to be one of the blander Denzel films out there in a big way. The gist of the storyline is John's little one's heart goes bad, so he will die. John decides to give his own heart to his son to save the son's life, and runs across a lot of red tape bullshit in trying to do so. So it's a societal conflict film.

The point of these flicks seems to be that if you step too far outside the parameters that society (a bunch of people trying to get by) lives by, you are the bad guy and you could be killed for it.

Yes, John Q. is not among Denzel's best, and some might call it bleeding heart propaganda.

Anyway, keep in mind the subplot in Falling Down - Duvall's character Prendergast is retiring and his wife has psycho-emotional issues. Prendergast is the one who incredulously asks D-Fens "that's the problem, you've been lied to?" and says "dude, I've got problems, we've all got problems, we've all been lied to, but that does not give you the right.. ."

Not only is Prendergast is "saved" by D-Fen who provided Prendergast with graphic illustration of what could happen to him if he doesn't handle his issues. And he does, symbolically, when he tells his wife, straight up, "I'll be home when I get home. And leave the skin on the chicken"; but he is also morally righteous to judge D-Fens because he learned from the experience through self-reflection, the opportunity for which D-Fens had with several of the people he came across, yet remained clueless. That makes D-Fens the bad guy.

The relational mechanisms in John Q. are different. John Q. is willing to sacrifice himself for someone else, and Duvall's character Grimes sees it. John Q. is not self-absorbed in the same way as D-Fens.

Beyond that, I'd have to watch John Q. again and pay more attention. I started this thread off the top of my head when I thought about the juxtaposition that hinges on Robert Duvall characters.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Anyway, keep in mind the subplot in Falling Down - Duvall's character Prendergast is retiring and his wife has psycho-emotional issues. Prendergast is the one who incredulously asks D-Fens "that's the problem, you've been lied to?" and says "dude, I've got problems, we've all got problems, we've all been lied to, but that does not give you the right.. ."

Not only is Prendergast is "saved" by D-Fen who provided Prendergast with graphic illustration of what could happen to him if he doesn't handle his issues. And he does, symbolically, when he tells his wife, straight up, "I'll be home when I get home. And leave the skin on the chicken"; but he is also morally righteous to judge D-Fens because he learned from the experience through self-reflection, the opportunity for which D-Fens had with several of the people he came across, yet remained clueless. That makes D-Fens the bad guy.

The relational mechanisms in John Q. are different. John Q. is willing to sacrifice himself for someone else, and Duvall's character Grimes sees it. John Q. is not self-absorbed in the same way as D-Fens.

Beyond that, I'd have to watch John Q. again and pay more attention. I started this thread off the top of my head when I thought about the juxtaposition that hinges on Robert Duvall characters.

I agree with you about D-Fens' mindset making him the "bad guy"--hell, the character's name is itself a critique of many white males' societal blindness issues even today--certainly including those who believe in the stupid "replacement theory." "D-Fens" sounds exactly like the word defense.... these guys believe that they are defending themselves against their downgrading or "replacement" in society by other races or ethnicities, and just the right amount of reflection might bring them to realize that those other people might not be thinking that way. The word "replacement" implies self-entitlement. Yes, the powers that be might discriminate against them just as blindly and stupidly as they did my ancestors years and years ago, but they still are, in my humble opinion, advantaged to be white men in this society.