@mechajutaro said:

That's quite a stretch to categorize Exorcist III, The Crow, and Solaris as noir

Granted, Solaris is a huge stretch, sort of a noir set in space. But I gotta defend The Crow (as well as Dark City I should’ve added) as pretty good neo-noirs by Proyas. Set in a shadowy labyrinthine city, set entirely at night, surreal lighting, characters who speak in one liners and show no conventional humanity except occasional half-amusement when someone gets shot up. What’s not to noir?

@rooprect said:

old & new what are your faves?

For the sake of my list, my definition of Noir is a film that sets a shadowy, surrealistic mood that defines the story.

• Night and the City (1950) - Jules Dassin
• Sweet Smell of Success (1957) - Alexander Mackendrick
• Eyes Without a Face (1960) - Georges Fanju
• The Trial (1962) - Orson Welles
• Brazil (1985) - Terry Gilliam
• Exorcist III (1990) - Peter Blatty
• The Crow (1994) - Alex Proyas
• Solaris (2002) - Steven Soderbergh

Why wouldn't you consider Laura [1944] & Rebecca [1940] instead ?? .....

@HugsAndBites said:

@rooprect said:

old & new what are your faves?

For the sake of my list, my definition of Noir is a film that sets a shadowy, surrealistic mood that defines the story.

• Night and the City (1950) - Jules Dassin
• Sweet Smell of Success (1957) - Alexander Mackendrick
• Eyes Without a Face (1960) - Georges Fanju
• The Trial (1962) - Orson Welles
• Brazil (1985) - Terry Gilliam
• Exorcist III (1990) - Peter Blatty
• The Crow (1994) - Alex Proyas
• Solaris (2002) - Steven Soderbergh

Why wouldn't you consider Laura [1944] & Rebecca [1940] instead ?? .....

Haven’t seen Laura though it’s on my list. Saw Rebecca ages ago and dug it.

I was trying to pick just 1 or 2 from each decade. The 90s didn’t have many noir style flicks but I think The Crow was the best example of the decade.

Exorcist III has that 2nd half set entirely in the killer’s cell, a stylish homage to noir with the skylights casting unrealistic lighting, characters fading in & out of the shadows, shifting patterns on backgrounds emoting the stifled emotions that the characters refuse to show. Blatty chose to use long, uninterrupted camera takes to set the tension à la Orson Welles in Touch of Evil & The Trial. The famous nurse corridor scene could’ve been straight out of early Hitchcock or Fritz Lang.

@mechajutaro said:

@rooprect said:

@mechajutaro said:

That's quite a stretch to categorize Exorcist III, The Crow, and Solaris as noir

Granted, Solaris is a huge stretch, sort of a noir set in space. But I gotta defend The Crow (as well as Dark City I should’ve added) as pretty good neo-noirs by Proyas. Set in a shadowy labyrinthine city, set entirely at night, surreal lighting, characters who speak in one liners and show no conventional humanity except occasional half-amusement when someone gets shot up. What’s not to noir?

Dark City's definitely a blend of fantasy and noir. The Crow's aesthetic is pure Goth though. One doesn't find metrosexual emo rockers who tear up while destroying a pawn shop in search of their murdered fiance's engagement wedding serving as protagonists in noir fiction. Saying this as someone who still has fond memories of The Crow, even though my assessment of the movie hath changed since first seeing it

So how do you take it that .... He begins losing powers - or gets weak during the last 30 minutes of the movie?? Is there any explanation to it? .....

@tmdb54278122 said:

@mechajutaro said:

@rooprect said:

@mechajutaro said:

That's quite a stretch to categorize Exorcist III, The Crow, and Solaris as noir

Granted, Solaris is a huge stretch, sort of a noir set in space. But I gotta defend The Crow (as well as Dark City I should’ve added) as pretty good neo-noirs by Proyas. Set in a shadowy labyrinthine city, set entirely at night, surreal lighting, characters who speak in one liners and show no conventional humanity except occasional half-amusement when someone gets shot up. What’s not to noir?

Dark City's definitely a blend of fantasy and noir. The Crow's aesthetic is pure Goth though. One doesn't find metrosexual emo rockers who tear up while destroying a pawn shop in search of their murdered fiance's engagement wedding serving as protagonists in noir fiction. Saying this as someone who still has fond memories of The Crow, even though my assessment of the movie hath changed since first seeing it

So how do you take it that .... He begins losing powers - or gets weak during the last 30 minutes of the movie?? Is there any explanation to it? .....

He loses his powers because he deviates from his strict mission of revenge to save the girl. In the original screenplay there was a character “Skull Cowboy” who warns him of this. Eric is brought back for revenge only, nothing more.

The Skull Cowboy scenes were cut entirely. I think that was a good move because it kept Eric as more of a lone existential protagonist, but it left a few things ambiguous such as his loss of powers (instead you could assume maybe his time was just running out since Devil’s Night was nearly over).

The existential protagonist is another hallmark of film noir: one lone character against the world, like Harry in Night and the City, trapped in a bizarre nightmare existence with no clear rules or explanations.

@mechajutaro said:

The existential protagonist is another hallmark of film noir: one lone character against the world,

He's not really alone though. Albrecht(Ernie Hudson)and Sarah are companions to varying degrees

True but Skull Cowboy would’ve been more like a supernatural god figure. Existential protagonists can have compatriots, but a grand overseer would negate the concept of existentialism.

@rooprect said:

@mechajutaro said:

That's quite a stretch to categorize Exorcist III, The Crow, and Solaris as noir

Granted, Solaris is a huge stretch, sort of a noir set in space. But I gotta defend The Crow (as well as Dark City I should’ve added) as pretty good neo-noirs by Proyas. Set in a shadowy labyrinthine city, set entirely at night, surreal lighting, characters who speak in one liners and show no conventional humanity except occasional half-amusement when someone gets shot up. What’s not to noir?

The thing is, a "huge stretch" is not that much of a thing when it comes to noir (or if you want to use the lesser term, neo-noir). Noir nowadays is like something that filmmakers sprinkle onto their food. I mean, Roman Polanski's Chinatown is pretty much sun-drenched... it's got maybe as many day scenes as it does night ones... and everybody seems to respect it as being a solid "neo-noir." For the stylistic stretch it is.

For me, the more people affect the whole traditional noir look / conventions, the more their stuff tends to feel jokey... as in Dark City for example, or even Brick. Those films' directors seem like they're trying too hard to me.

The thing is, a "huge stretch" is not that much of a thing when it comes to noir (or if you want to use the lesser term, neo-noir). Noir nowadays is like something that filmmakers sprinkle onto their food. I mean, Roman Polanski's Chinatown is pretty much sun-drenched... it's got maybe as many day scenes as it does night ones... and everybody seems to respect it as being a solid "neo-noir." For the stylistic stretch it is.

For me, the more people affect the whole traditional noir look / conventions, the more their stuff tends to feel jokey... as in Dark City for example, or even Brick. Those films' directors seem like they're trying too hard to me.

I agree on the jokey stuff which is why I prefer The Crow over Dark City. When they lay it on thick with 1940s detective stereotypes and wide brimmed hats it almost seems like deliberate camp which downplays a serious effort. It’s for that reason that I didn’t even mention Sin City, even though I enjoyed the movie.

But if we roll up our sleeves and get into what noir is really about, not just wisecracking detectives but things like unconventional framing of shots, surreal lighting to convey emotions that the characters feel, and heavy visual symbolism (like the cage-like windows Nosseross’s office in Night & the City... or the cage-like walls of Kelvin’s room in Solaris), the elements of noir can still be seen going strong today.

@rooprect said:

But if we roll up our sleeves and get into what noir is really about, not just wisecracking detectives but things like unconventional framing of shots, surreal lighting to convey emotions that the characters feel, and heavy visual symbolism (like the cage-like windows Nosseross’s office in Night & the City... or the cage-like walls of Kelvin’s room in Solaris), the elements of noir can still be seen going strong today.

One aspect I always love about old film noir is the strong, offbeat physical violence. Like Lee Marvin hurling some hot coffee in his girlfriend's face, or a man in a wheelchair getting thrown down a flight of stairs. One might wonder what was the country feeling, for this kind of stuff to be deemed attractive in its entertainment back then?

One point I'm messing with is that there's maybe nothing cinematically that "noir is really about." I don't know how you'll feel about that idea

@CelluloidFan said:

@rooprect said:

But if we roll up our sleeves and get into what noir is really about, not just wisecracking detectives but things like unconventional framing of shots, surreal lighting to convey emotions that the characters feel, and heavy visual symbolism (like the cage-like windows Nosseross’s office in Night & the City... or the cage-like walls of Kelvin’s room in Solaris), the elements of noir can still be seen going strong today.

One aspect I always love about old film noir is the strong, offbeat physical violence. Like Lee Marvin hurling some hot coffee in his girlfriend's face, or a man in a wheelchair getting thrown down a flight of stairs. One might wonder what was the country feeling, for this kind of stuff to be deemed attractive in its entertainment back then?

One point I'm messing with is that there's maybe nothing cinematically that "noir is really about." I don't know how you'll feel about that idea

That could be the case. I guess it's sort of like rock music. In the beginning there were clear defining qualities, but nowadays rock music can be anything with a beat.

I do think there are some core traits that will always define film noir. Unnatural lighting & shadows, unconventional camera angles, backgrounds & architecture that reflect moods. Thematically I agree there's usually a sinister vibe (that wheelchair scene must've really caused a stir). And usually we have an anti-hero, or a very morally flawed protagonist.

It does make you wonder about audiences who craved it. Maybe in 100 years they'll wonder what made gore/splatter flicks so popular in our time. I don't think it necessarily reflects on any sort of moral decay of society; I think it's just a natural blowback when people get tired of predictable stuff. What's funny is I think today the disturbing stuff is what's predictable, and maybe that's why the pendulum is swinging back to Disney. Repeat every 50 years.

Great post. At the outset of noir we were coming away from a war & depression, no? I’m awful with history but that’s my rough understanding.