Ciao Knix!

I enjoyed the episode cause it was full of inner turmoil; I agree York did an egregious job .. it was no easy role to play .. the character could have come off easily comical but instead, York made it work ..

I also love how the writers used the battle between Mordred and King Arthur to recall what happened between the Minbari e Humans during their first encounter.

A misunderstanding which caused the beginning of the hostilities... a stupid accident which will cost thousands of lives ...deaths York's character fills guilty for...

I love how Delenn became the Dame of the Lake and York’s character returns the sword to her... I don't really see though, how that can make him feel less guilty ... or why does he feel Delenn has granted him forgiveness ...........can you offer some insight on that point?

He felt guilty, despite he only followed orders, for having fired first on the Minbari destroying both their ships and the commander of the Minbari warriors .. some iconic figure..

which then brought the two sides to confront each other at the Battle of the Line(?) where the Humans were outgunned and only a fraction survived ..

Delenn ‘s guilt ?? You mean....

for stopping the war at the Battle of the Line which then caused a fracture between the Minbari warriors led by Neroon and the religious faction...................Is that what you are referring to?

Initially, I didn’t like Neroon but later on when he confronts Marcus, I started to understand his position and by the time he died saving Delenn , I really love the character..

Have you seen “Eyes in the Sky” 2015 ..

There are these two soldiers that have to follow orders and push the trigger of a telecommanded bomb .. they also have satellite visual so they can see who is about to be killed and also they see the aftermath ..

you can see their struggle ... the guilt in their eyes .. among the victims there is a child that was selling bread ..

they too were only following orders ..but obviously, it's not that simple, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxpX8-efsZI

I was thinking maybe you hadn't seen the relevant part yet, but that's in season 4 episode 9, "Atonement," and you said you stopped watching (for now) after Neroon died which was season 4, episode 14 "Moments Of Transition." In "Atonement," Delenn goes through "The Dreaming" which Minbari use to face their past etc. So you should have seen where after the death of Dukhat at the first meeting with humans, the other members of the Gray Council are tied in voting about whether to wait for a possible explanation or to immediately retaliate. Overcome by grief at the death of her mentor, Delenn gives the tie-breaking vote: Retaliate. Destroy them all, with "No Mercy!" she cried. Which started the Earth-Minbari war, that almost ended all human life.

So she definitely shared - internally, at least - the pain and guilt that York's character also felt, although in her case she was really far more responsible for the war than York had been. But it doesn't seem like anyone else knew about it. York's character followed an order to fire, Delenn in effect actually gave the order on her side.

The belief of York's character in the redemption possible to him by returning the sword, was basically just because he was immersed in the Arthurian legend.

And I don't think you meant "egregious" as the "outstandingly good" meaning is considered "archaic." Now it's just "outstandingly bad."

@ to knix.

Yes I did stop watching after Neroon sacrificed himself saving Delenn and reuniting the three castes .. I think more than a month has past and having binge-watched up to that point ( three and a half seasons) some details tend to slip my mind .. as soon as I read your reply, I recalled Delenn became Dukhat’s favorite student and then aide ( for a specific reason too) and when Dukhat is killed and dies in her arms ... out of rage ..... she gives the deciding vote to commence war against the Humans... " without mercy!"

Her guilt is rightfully due .. because her "YES" started the war whilst York’s character was only following orders ..

She later regretted her actions but nevertheless the responsibility of starting a war that would most likely have wiped out humanity didn’t weigh on her as much..

She convinced the religious caste that the war had to end because of Sinclair’s true nature ..and because Nimbari don't kill Minbari

... her interest towards Sinclair later was because she knew he was Minbari .. it had nothing to do with trying to redeem herself for having given the deciding vote to attack the Humans.

In the beginning, I liked Delenn but by season 4 , it really started to bother me how she thought she could do as she pleased ..she never cared that her actions would irk the Minbari castes..

Then we have Lennier and Marcus ready to protect her in any circumstance and Neroon dying instead of her was the last straw that broke the camel's back... don't see why she is so special to all these men ..I thought she was in love with Sinclair ..and then she had eyes for Sheridan, while Sinclair was still alive on Minbari ... the writers should've waited to get her sweet with Sheridan...

by knix:

And I don't think you meant "egregious" as the "outstandingly good" meaning is considered "archaic." Now it's just "outstandingly bad.

Oops ... no I didn't .

Egregio .... means EXCELLENT in Italian so I thought ....

egregious ....meant the same in English 😂

York ha fatto un lavoro egregio

York did an excellent job😂

Okay I made you laugh, at least 🤤

I meant he did a brilliant job ... his character could have come off goofy, instead, it didn't.

Well, remember it was "fated" according to Valen - Sinclair - that those things Delenn did, had to be done. Such as breaking the Gray Council.

And remember too that Sinclair was originally supposed to have gone all the way through, and perhaps not even end up being Valen because that was going to be someone else, I don't remember some of those changes now. Sinclair left, and Sheridan came in, because Michael O'Hare (Sinclair) was having serious problems with depression etc.

In a way, many of these "problems" came about simply because "it was written that way," and in some cases because things had to change mid-stream for one reason or another. I think, overall, the show came out better than it would have been if everything had gone according to JMS's original plans.

by knix:

Well, remember it was "fated" according to Valen - Sinclair - that those things Delenn did, had to be done. Such as breaking the Gray Council.

Certain actions had to be done/ occur to guarantee a future in which the Minbari declared war against Humans.... Sinclair then would be caught at the Battle of the LIne and the Grey Council would discover he was Minbari ......

so she still could have acted differently and another future would have played out.. right???

So that still makes her responsible for her actions, decisions...even those fated according to Sinclair / Valen.

But there were other actors involved too. The Shadows, the Vorlons... Valen/Sinclair knew how things WENT, and any changes, even just asking Delenn to be more "polite," could have screwed things up a lot. As Picard said, "What incentive could anyone give me to allow THAT to happen?"

by knix:

But there were other actors involved too. The Shadows, the Vorlons... Valen/Sinclair knew how things WENT, and any changes, even just asking Delenn to be more "polite," could have screwed things up a lot......

I understand there were other "players" but you are missing my point ..

you wrote : Well, remember it was "fated" according to Valen - Sinclair - that those things Delenn did, had to be done. Such as breaking the Gray Council.

.....even if it was "fated" that she would do those things ..Delenn could have changed her mind and in doing so create a new timeline where they did not go to war against Earth....

so fated or not ..it was still a decision she made alone ... so she should have felt guilty because her decision to go to war against Humans:

firstly, was decisive and was made during a fit of rage, and

secondly, in time both sides understood that it was an honest mistake that the Humans fired when they saw the gunports open on the Minbari ships... hence in part, it was the Minbaris' fault too... gunports open to most species means hostile intentions/battle.

Conclusion: I never sensed that Delenn felt guilt the slightest over her actions when later she went to live on Babylon 5 to stay close to Sinclair/ Valen.. and certainly not like York 's character, who was overwhelmed by guilt and he had only followed orders.

Well, I think she felt it, for sure. And expressed it to some, including Lennier. But considering her position at the time, being completely honest with Sinclair and Sheridan and the others would not have had a good result. Even 10 years after the war.

And how was Delenn supposed to create a different timeline? She didn't go back in time, only Sinclair did. At the time of the start of the Earth/Minbari War, humans and Minbari had not encountered each other directly. And certainly Delenn had no idea at that time that Valen was actually Sinclair.

Would you suggest that Valen (Sinclair) had told them not to start the war after Dukhat was killed? Without the resulting build-up for war etc, maybe they would have been unprepared to deal with the Shadows. And so on.

Perhaps the main point of all of this, of course, is that basically everything that happened "had to" happen, and "had to" happen the way it did - including the millions of Narn that died, for example - for the necessary conclusion to be reached: defeating the Shadows, which also led to the departure of the Vorlons, etc. And the resulting freedom of the younger races to proceed under their own direction.