Yaaaaaaawwwwwn.

Tumbleweed

@strntz said:

Wonder Woman is a character borne out of WWII - a woman of courage who comes to America to fight the Nazis. Even Lynda Carter's version had a red, white, and blue themed costume. Sad that any connection with America has been sanitized from the film.

Considering the overseas markets, it proves that money talks.

Totally agree with you. Just saw it and in my opinion the movie is not so good. Expected better based on reviews. 6/10 for me.

I don't know if we should be promoting nationalism in 2017. There were also nazi super hero comic books. The comic books nowadays are self-reflecting about their nationalistic propaganda disseminating nature. This is why in the new Secret Empire series Captain America, through a certain course of events, has become a hydra operative trying to build a world under hydra rule.

People need to understand that in every war and every conflict there are two sides. Each side thinks that the other side is the ultimate evil that needs to be removed from this world.

@Geff said:

I don't know if we should be promoting nationalism in 2017.

We've got Trump to do that!!!!!

@Geff said:

I don't know if we should be promoting nationalism in 2017. There were also nazi super hero comic books. The comic books nowadays are self-reflecting about their nationalistic propaganda disseminating nature. This is why in the new Secret Empire series Captain America, through a certain course of events, has become a hydra operative trying to build a world under hydra rule.

People need to understand that in every war and every conflict there are two sides. Each side thinks that the other side is the ultimate evil that needs to be removed from this world.

UGH.

who cares what her costume looks like as long as she's awesome as ever ;_;

@alltimemarr said:

who cares what her costume looks like as long as she's awesome as ever ;_;

This! And she is!

@Geff said:

I don't know if we should be promoting nationalism in 2017.

Why not? Nationalism doesn't necessarily equal national socialism or a hatred of the rest of the world. Nothing wrong with a healthy love for your country and national identity. Globalism isn't exactly a great alternative either.

@Stratego! said:

@Geff said:

I don't know if we should be promoting nationalism in 2017.

Why not? Nationalism doesn't necessarily equal national socialism or a hatred of the rest of the world. Nothing wrong with a healthy love for your country and national identity. Globalism isn't exactly a great alternative either.

True, but it's extremely hard to recognize the flaws in your country (and how they need to be fixed) if you believe your country is perfect. It's like that one parent who's kid is a twerp but the parent thinks they're a perfect angel and so won't disciple him.

Personally I think the amount of american nationalism we've been seeing over the past few years is getting dangerous. It makes certain people feel superior to those they perceive to not be americans. Also some people just go too overboard with flags. It's like when I watch a movie with Nazis and they have swastikas on everything, except now it's the american flag. It's eerie.

@cswood

I also don't think nationalism necessarily means believing your country is perfect or superior. The Nazis were far from being to first to wave their flags all over the place.

But I think Hobnobber is correct, there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism and this issue seems to be more about the former.

@Stratego! said:

Why not? Nationalism doesn't necessarily equal national socialism or a hatred of the rest of the world. Nothing wrong with a healthy love for your country and national identity. Globalism isn't exactly a great alternative either.

There are two ideas contained here, both of which are interesting. I'll try to address them to the best of my ability.

First, on the topic of nationalism:

Nationalism and patriotism is one and the same. For some inexplicable reason nationalism is perceived as more negative in people's minds than patriotism, or alternatively patriotism is seen more positively. Epistemologically the ideas are too similar for me to merit distinction. If you can tell me a clear line of distinction between the two then let me know. For now, when I talk about nationalism I don't make a distinction between it and patriotism.

I think people will see the errors in nationalism if they do a simple reframing and see nationalism from the point of view of an "out-group".

Example: I am Pakistani and I hold a strong degree of national pride. There is an implicit entailment in the idea of "pride" here. My country must be superior to other countries in some regard or another; if this is not the case, then what exactly am I proud of? In my case, I believe that my country is superior because my country is the only country in the world that sufficiently holds up the values of Islam. The rest of the world is too secular in my opinion, and this increasing secularity is becoming toxic and driving the world into depravity. For god's sake homosexuality is legal in America! How can they say that they are a moral country if they allow such debauchery to pass. My country is the best country in the world because it would never allow such debauchery to occur. I see my country as being in competition with America because I think my country is better. I wonder how we should resolve this competition to see which country is better?...

You see what nationalism looks like when you perceive nationalism from the perspective of an out-group. You can also see what outcomes it may potentially encourage...

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

Second, on the topic of globalism:

The meaning of the word globalism has been subverted somehow in modern times. I'm not entirely sure what globalism means today, but I'll tell you what globalism was originally intended to mean: The term globalism was popularized by Noam Chompsky and other like-minds during their protests against the Vietnam War and similar aggressive interventionism by America. The negative view of globalism came from the idea that we should not be enforcing western ideals. We should not be forcibly attempting to change the world. For example, we should not be bringing modern technology and industrialization to Papua New Guinea.

Now, if a country wants to join a collective of nations that all hold similar values. And they want to join out of their own free will; not as a result of force, or as a result of threats of violence, then that is good! They are joining because they want to, because they feel that they can benefit from the alliance. This is not globalism as it is peaceful and willing acquiescence, not enforced conformity.

@Geff

Patriotism is simply a love for one's homeland. While nationalism shares a lot of the same ideas, it's much more of a political concept that goes back to nation-building and self-determination. The colors of Wonder Woman's costume representing the American flag is about nothing more than an affection for one's country. And I say this as someone who isn't American.

Yeah, Noam Chomsky, the man who calls the Republican Party the most dangerous organization in human history, even worse than ISIS. Get outta here. If nationalism is too extreme for you, then this guy is at the other end of the spectrum.

Nationalism doesn't have to mean the belief that one's country is superior. And "pride" does not mean being or feeling like the best. Just like you're portraying an extreme positive of globalism, you're also trying to portray an extreme negative of nationalism. I don't care if or why a Pakistani guy thinks his country is the best in the world, he's absolutely entitled to that opinion as long as he doesn't try to enforce it onto other countries.

To me, World War 1 works better for the movie in a general sense, in terms of Wonder Woman's character arc and the theme of the movie (or what I took it to be) in which there is no clear singular bad guy that you can take out and magically make things better and that all human beings have the capacity for great evil without the need for an evil figure to propel them to commit such atrocities. World War II with figures the likes of Hitler would muddy that focus up a bit.

@Stratego! said:

Just like you're portraying an extreme positive of globalism.

What!? I have to bring into question your reading comprehension.

The only reason I brought up Noam Chomsky is because he was the historical figure one who popularized the term globalism. He saw globalism (in its true meaning) as a negative! He fought against globalism.

@Stratego! said:

Nationalism doesn't have to mean the belief that one's country is superior. And "pride" does not mean being or feeling like the best.

If you honestly and truely, deep in your heart, believe that pride can exist hermatically;

-if you believe that it does not influence competitiveness in any way,

-if you believe that it does not magnify national identity and the beliefs aligned with that national identity,

-if you believe that it does not increase resistance to the opposing belief system,

-if you believe that conflict cannot arise from a clash of those belief systems,

-if you believe that you would not be more likely to empathize with your nation and not empathize with the opposing nation if conflict does arise,

IF you believe all of these things, then we don't have any disagreement. Although, I would bring into question your understanding of human psychology.

To note: if Wonder Woman had a costume that were more representative of an American flag, then I would not be opposed or up-in-arms about it. But, to demand that we backwards and do our best to promote nationalism where there is the absence of it, this does not fare well with me. It's like SJW-ism, but from the other side.