It really does seem like this is going to be the final season. Perhaps not a bad thing considering.

@revengine said:

It really does seem like this is going to be the final season. Perhaps not a bad thing considering.

As boring as it has become to watch Liz cycle through her hating Red, then discovering she was wrong about him and realizing he loves her and only wants to protect her, over and over again, I still like this show. It's true that the writing has suffered, especially recently. And I don't think they can stretch this story out much longer. This series cannot end without tying up the loose ends. Who is Spader? I think he is Liz's uncle, Katarina's brother. Why did Katarina help him assume Red's identity? and so on. This jail season has about the worst one yet. I still like the show, primarily because of Spader. But the writing has suffered a great deal, in my opinion. I would love to see it turn around for a great finish. I think there are four more episodes this season. That is time to answer all the questions if this is the last season.
As far as the show has fallen, I am going to miss it. I think they might kill off Red in the finale. I can see that happening. But I hope they write it differently. I just want them to leave the option open to revisit the story sometime, maybe a movie, maybe a short series. I just like the show too much. But I think they are looking for a final end. I think Samar is dying and will be gone within the next couple of episodes, by the next to last at the latest.

I just hope they do a good job with the answers to the questions they have teased us with for 6 years.

@wonder2wonder said:

This is becoming more and more a farce and the characters are a parody of themselves.

Red, who is not Red, is slowly shedding his all-powerful, omniscient disguise, and becoming whatever that's left, tumbling down his delicious pączki hill towards his ungraceful demise.

Liz and her evil half-sister Jennifer are acting dumb and dumber (or is it the other way around).

Ressler is still trying to get a part on the new Keystone Cops show.

Aram and Samar should just hurry, get married and start a family.

Cooper (facepalm).

Only Dembe seems to stay grounded. Let's hope they don't mess with his character.

Aram has been a joke from the beginning. He is just too much of a pacifist to ever be issued a weapon or become an agent. He could have been a civilian employee with high clearance, or something like that. But I can't see him as an agent. Remember the time he couldn't cripple that helicopter which was on the way to cause a meltdown of a nuclear power plant which would have caused a million deaths from radioactive fallout? "But if I push this button, I will be causing a man's death" is pretty much what he said as he sat there vacillating before Cooper finally pushed the button for him. OK, he is a pacifist and couldn't do it. But that means he has no business being an agent; anyone who cannot make that calculation, who cannot see the moral difference between a mass murderer and a million innocent citizens should not be carrying that badge.

There is always a certain level of disbelief suspension necessary to watch these fictional shows. So I can usually just overlook that kind of stuff.

I wonder if Liz has some kind of dissociative personality disorder, like what used to be called multiple personality disorder. She seems to totally forget everything Red has done, the many times he has voluntarily offered his life in exchange for hers, the fortunes he has forfeited on her behalf, and so on, as she fumes with hatred at him because he chooses to keep some things secret from her. Later she recognizes him as someone committed to keeping her safe, if in the dark, someone who actually cares deeply for her. Then she forgets again. I was hoping Dembe would tell Red; it is unlike him to lie to Red. Dembe has been the strongest proponent for Red being honest with Liz. And now he has lied to Red.

Liz and Jennifer both act a bit psycho, like rabid militant feminists ready to infer the worst motives to anything said or done, with such strong confirmation bias that they can find fault with the most innocent, benign expression of love. They both seem to confuse thinking with feeling; they imagine the worst, fuel each other's hatred over the awful thing they have imagined, and believe they know the truth because of the depth and intensity of their emotions. When Liz found out that Katarina took Spader to that doctor to make him look like Red, she couldn't accept it because it didn't fit with the scenario she had concocted about Spader. He is evil, and she knows this because she feels so justified by her outrage over her imaging that he has nefarious motives. 'I feel so strongly, I can't be wrong' is what she would be thinking, if she thought.
Liz does this over and over again. It gets old.

Cooper is funny. I like him. He seems a bit simple sometimes, but I still sort of like it about him. He makes quick, clear decisions, even if they don't always seem borne from a full analysis of the information. At least he isn't hindered by the hyper-analysis which paralyzes some wonks.

Ressler was a boyscout from the start. His character has been expanded a little bit over time, especially recently. He has let Liz get by with stuff, and even helped her with some of it, that could get them both fired and arrested. You have to wonder if the writers are going to have them get together in the end. Maybe. It could just be that he feels very loyal to his partner and given their history and his longstanding distrust of Reddington, he doesn't want to see her get in trouble for trying to get answers. But it was out of character for him to get involved in the mess Liz created. And if the show is ending now, they may put them together so we see her with a protector. Red would probably like that.

I think they are going to kill off Samar. I think she has a brain tumor or something like that. That would explain the sudden apparent migraines she now suffers from, though she has no history of them. If true, that would be another indicator that the series is winding down. I doubt she would leave before the show ended.

The show can't go on much longer. Liz is committed to finding out Red's last secrets. And the revelation of those secrets has been the driving force, the main plot of the show. The ratings have fallen off, especially this season. Red will realize that Liz is suffering from not knowing, that it has been a mistake to keep her in the dark so long. He will tell her, but I think he may meet his end this season in a final act of sacrifice for her...somehow. Maybe. It looks like there are four more shows this season. That gives them time to wrap up the loose ends. Who is Spader, and why did Katarina help him assume Red's identity? That is the main question to be answered. I think Red if Katarina's brother, but we will see.

After that is answered, the show is over I think.

I can't decide if Red will die. I can see them killing off Red, perhaps just as Liz is finding out who he really is, and why he has been protecting her these years. She will get very emotional, blame herself, cry etc. And Red will tell her she did nothing wrong, that he should have told her the whole truth long before this, but he was too much in the habit of keeping secrets in order to keep her safe. I can see them doing something like that in the finale. Red would probably be killed off in a final act of protecting Liz, possibly ending the threat against her, something like that. He would tell her he had a great life, that he regrets nothing, that Dembe will help her in the future, that helping her and keeping her safe was the greatest thing, the most satisfying thing, etc. that he had ever done, and that dying to save her perhaps made up for the awful things he has done. Stuff like that. Liz crying, Red, without regret, comforting her as he dies. Maudlin stuff. I can see them writing it that way.

I don't know. But something like that seems likely.

I hope they do a really good job of telling the story, and don't just rush through some hasty explanation. For all the time they have spent teasing us with the secret of Red's past and why he cares about Liz, they need to be sure to do a good job answering those questions.

Show's been renewed for season 7. Usually when they put a show on Fridays its like putting it out to pasture. Maybe Fridays aren't the death sentence they were years ago.

I stand by Red being Katarina's brother, who took on the face of her lover/Liz's father, Raymond Reddington. Finding out Katarina was by Red's side during the procedure kinda cemented that for me in my mind. Though the implications: you took on the appearance of the guy screwing your sister. :/ But anyway Katarina made him look guilty of treason cause at that point her brother was Raymond-in-appearance and she didn't want him to die.

During Liz's mad pursuit of the truth, it made me realize the show WANTS a sort of symmetry where while we see Red redeemed we see Liz corrupted. I say WANTS to but doesn't have the huevos to stay the course. Which is sad, cause that's the only way an otherwise boring and I dare say useless character such as Liz can be interesting.

I watch out of mild curiosity and, well, its Spader, but I'll always believe Liz should have stayed dead after giving birth instead of that fakeout. It would have breathed new life into the show and gave the spinoff some life too. Ah well.

@RodimusConvoy said:

Show's been renewed for season 7. Usually when they put a show on Fridays its like putting it out to pasture. Maybe Fridays aren't the death sentence they were years ago.

I stand by Red being Katarina's brother, who took on the face of her lover/Liz's father, Raymond Reddington. Finding out Katarina was by Red's side during the procedure kinda cemented that for me in my mind. Though the implications: you took on the appearance of the guy screwing your sister. :/ But anyway Katarina made him look guilty of treason cause at that point her brother was Raymond-in-appearance and she didn't want him to die.

During Liz's mad pursuit of the truth, it made me realize the show WANTS a sort of symmetry where while we see Red redeemed we see Liz corrupted. I say WANTS to but doesn't have the huevos to stay the course. Which is sad, cause that's the only way an otherwise boring and I dare say useless character such as Liz can be interesting.

I watch out of mild curiosity and, well, its Spader, but I'll always believe Liz should have stayed dead after giving birth instead of that fakeout. It would have breathed new life into the show and gave the spinoff some life too. Ah well.

Oh good. As much as the show has faltered, I would hate for it to end now. I wouldn't want the last season to be such a dud, Red in jail the whole time, and so on.

I don't think they could have reworked the show without Liz. Well, they could have, but it would have killed the plot that has been at the center of the show since the start.

I knew that Red's mentor was going to rip off all the gold, and that Red was correct when he said that Stacey Keech was bullshitting about being happy to be poor and living a mundane life. It made a good story, the old master ripping him off once again but I thought they telegraphed it a bit. It was a bit much to buy the bit about Red failing to have adequate security for the stolen gold. Red doesn't typically make those mistakes. I think that is the end of that story, but I kind of wondered if Glen, the little DMV guy, might still be pissed over the slight he perceived from Red during the courtroom appearance. It looked like he blew his testimony on purpose to me. Did Stacey Keech make a side deal with Glen for part of the gold? ....I doubt it, but that could be written in as a twist to the story down the road.

Well I guessed wrong about Samar Navabe having cancer. Once I learned she had a progressive dementia I figured the Mossad would have concerns. The show dramatized the response, but the concern there is real. I knew Samar wasn't going to show up, that she had lied to Aram in order to get separated from him and get away on her own. Finally the show is picking up in interest again after the boring prison episodes.

Now that Liz knows her mother arranged for Spader to assume Red's face and ID she seems to have backed off of her "Spader is a demon" phase again. I have vented my spleen about Liz many times already, including in this thread, so no need to repeat myself here. And I agree, it does seem to support the Red is Katarina's brother angle. Never say never, but that just seems to make the most sense. As far as the specific reasons Katarina wanted Spader to take on this role, that will have to be fleshed out once they get around to finally telling us who Spader really is, what happened, and so on.
I still think it must be related to the Fulcrum, the blackmail file that insured Red's safety from the cabal. Katarina must have believed that fooling the cabal into believing Red was still alive and in possession of the file was the best way to keep Masha safe. (She should have arranged for Masha to have lifelong psychiatric care also, something to keep her from flip flopping "I hate Red" "I love Red" "I hate Red" "I love Red": like Sybil working as an FBI profiler. )

Like I said above, I am glad they have another season. It would have been really pushing things to resolve all the questions, and tie up the relationships in 4 episodes. It would have been a disservice to the show and the audience to do a poor, rushed job of it. I guess Red won't find out it was really Liz who gave him up in NYC until much later now that they have another whole season to work with.

Also......I have been thinking ever since Red first told us that they never found Katarina's body that she is alive somewhere. I mean, they found her clothes folded up at the beach, and assumed that she swam out into the ocean and drowned? Come on, that is really thin evidence. She was on the run from the world's superpowers so faking her own suicide would have been a smart move for her. If she is alive, does Spader know she is alive? Is that one of the reasons he refuses to reveal the truth to Liz? Is he afraid that doing so would put Katarina in danger, and Liz also? If the news that Katarina is alive leaked out, those who still want to kill her or capture her would then certainly go after Liz in order to get the leverage needed to smoke her out. If Liz found out, she would stop at nothing to try to find her mother, and would certainly tip off others inadvertently while doing so. If she is alive, the writers could find a lot of interesting directions to take this story. They need to spice it up, because this season was pretty boring.

@write2topcat said:

I don't think they could have reworked the show without Liz. Well, they could have, but it would have killed the plot that has been at the center of the show since the start.

Here's the thing though: Liz was an audience surrogate character, the gateway to the world of Raymond Raymond and thus the taskforce. Once the audience is initiated, the audience surrogate character isn't needed anymore and if they aren't killed off, they're repurposed. Conjecture, but, I feel the writers know this but because Liz or Boone or both are beloved keeps faltering with what to do with her character instead of having her go the way of most other audience surrogate characters, death. That's why we keep getting the he's the devil no wait he's an angel nonsense from Liz toward Red, the character fulfilled its purpose seasons ago and they're trying (and IMO failing) to keep her fresh.

As for the rest of what you said, 1) haven't seen the most recent ep yet so I'll comment when I do, sounds nice 2) I don't feel the show was commited to Amar and Samar, not really. Her agreeing to marry him when she came out of her coma was the happiest the show would ever let them get. Unless the current episode contradicts me, I think the show is NOW invested in Liz and Ressler. Cliche but, see the previous paragraph. Ressler though has always fascinated me in that I think his purpose is to be a counterpoint to Raymond, the one guy willing and unafraid to call out Raymond's bs.

@RodimusConvoy said:

@write2topcat said:

I don't think they could have reworked the show without Liz. Well, they could have, but it would have killed the plot that has been at the center of the show since the start.

Here's the thing though: Liz was an audience surrogate character, the gateway to the world of Raymond Raymond and thus the taskforce. Once the audience is initiated, the audience surrogate character isn't needed anymore and if they aren't killed off, they're repurposed. Conjecture, but, I feel the writers know this but because Liz or Boone or both are beloved keeps faltering with what to do with her character instead of having her go the way of most other audience surrogate characters, death. That's why we keep getting the he's the devil no wait he's an angel nonsense from Liz toward Red, the character fulfilled its purpose seasons ago and they're trying (and IMO failing) to keep her fresh.

As for the rest of what you said, 1) haven't seen the most recent ep yet so I'll comment when I do, sounds nice 2) I don't feel the show was commited to Amar and Samar, not really. Her agreeing to marry him when she came out of her coma was the happiest the show would ever let them get. Unless the current episode contradicts me, I think the show is NOW invested in Liz and Ressler. Cliche but, see the previous paragraph. Ressler though has always fascinated me in that I think his purpose is to be a counterpoint to Raymond, the one guy willing and unafraid to call out Raymond's bs.

Interesting. Yes I've been thinking Ressler and Liz are a good bet to get together. And about Aram and Samar, right, they were never going to be happy. Which couples on this show are allowed to be happy? I don't mean for a little while, but for the long term. I can't think of one right now. Cooper's wife cheated on him, Ressler's wife was killed by Tanaka shortly after they got back together, Tom was killed, Aram dated a cyber spy, and then chased Samar for so long while she was aloof. It wasn't until her brain had been starved of oxygen that she agreed to marry him. lol Mr. Kaplan's girlfriend was shot dead not long after the two of them became an item. Did I forget anyone? Relationships are all tragic in this show. Even Liz's parents had tortured love lives. James Spader's character talks about losing his family through murder and fire, though he may be referring to the real Red's family in that piece. But he is a loner by necessity. Nobody gets to stay in a long term happy relationship in this show.

I don't think they can get rid of Liz before she gets the answers she wants. Also, from the first episode Red has insisted he would only talk to Elizabeth Keene, right? And if she wasn't there, then his deal with the task force would be over, like after he thought she had died, except for the period when he wanted to go after those who he thought responsible for her death. She was more than the gateway to his world. She was his reason for being there, for building his criminal network and wealth, etc. I think it would be problematic to get rid of her. Also, the viewers would feel cheated if she never learned the answers to the questions the show teases us with ad nauseum. I think you're other point about her is on target. They need to keep that dynamic about her and Raymond in play and changing, to keep the tension there. It's just that the way Liz comes across, either the way it is written or how it is acted, Liz seems almost pathologically disconnected from herself. She seems to confuse feeling with thinking.

@write2topcat said:

@write2topcat said: Interesting. Yes I've been thinking Ressler and Liz are a good bet to get together. And about Aram and Samar, right, they were never going to be happy. Which couples on this show are allowed to be happy? I don't mean for a little while, but for the long term. I can't think of one right now. Cooper's wife cheated on him, Ressler's wife was killed by Tanaka shortly after they got back together, Tom was killed, Aram dated a cyber spy, and then chased Samar for so long while she was aloof. It wasn't until her brain had been starved of oxygen that she agreed to marry him. lol Mr. Kaplan's girlfriend was shot dead not long after the two of them became an item. Did I forget anyone? Relationships are all tragic in this show. Even Liz's parents had tortured love lives. James Spader's character talks about losing his family through murder and fire, though he may be referring to the real Red's family in that piece. But he is a loner by necessity. Nobody gets to stay in a long term happy relationship in this show.

Ironically, Tom and Liz would have been happy if the spinoff survived cause he would have effectively been off the show. I think the idea was to have a sort of balancing act where both shows constantly crossed over with the other. If you don't see the other person (Harold's wife, Tom if the spinoff survived), or if one of the people in the relationship is one of the main characters (Liz) AND its a later season (we're about to go into season 7), it has the potential to be happy.

Aram...I feel like they [the writers] stop just short of making him comic relief, and thus he's the put-upon guy. He's awkward and has bad luck. I'm curious how the general audience feels about him, cause usually characters like that are adored and rooted for.

I don't think they can get rid of Liz before she gets the answers she wants. Also, from the first episode Red has insisted he would only talk to Elizabeth Keene, right? And if she wasn't there, then his deal with the task force would be over, like after he thought she had died, except for the period when he wanted to go after those who he thought responsible for her death. She was more than the gateway to his world. She was his reason for being there, for building his criminal network and wealth, etc. I think it would be problematic to get rid of her. Also, the viewers would feel cheated if she never learned the answers to the questions the show teases us with ad nauseum. I think you're other point about her is on target. They need to keep that dynamic about her and Raymond in play and changing, to keep the tension there. It's just that the way Liz comes across, either the way it is written or how it is acted, Liz seems almost pathologically disconnected from herself. She seems to confuse feeling with thinking.

Oh they very much can get rid of Liz NOW that's why I keep mentioning the delivery fakeout death. That would have been the perfect point to do it, cause at that point Red then had a relationship with the whole task force, as a unit and to varying degrees individually, even with his own foil, Ressler. And his deal is not dependent on Liz, at least not now. If she was dead his knowledge of blacklisters doesn't somehow die with her, so the government would still want a deal with him.

I've long accepted they WON'T kill Liz (begrudgingly), but oh yes they very much CAN. I remember making a post, though I reiterated a bit of it here, how it would have shot new life into the show and spinoff (sorry I loved the spinoff and saw its potential that's why I keep mentioning it ). Like you said, and I agree, Red is a loner, but at that point (the delivery death fakeout) he was the Batman type of loner: loner in his mind and out of stubbornness because he has an entire family he can rely on (the various Robins Oracle Batgirl etc). An overarching plot about how he realizes they're more than a tool to him, and vice versa he's more than a CI, and have been to each other all along, would have been nice to see. We get bits and pieces of it now (Red giving the head of Ressler's fiance's killer to Ressler, Red asking Aram to meet him at an open grave in the cemetary, etc) plus his friendship with Harold, it just would have been emphasized more.

And, perhaps ironically, the ratings would improve. Not cause Liz is dead, but because with her gone the mystery of who she is and who Red is would have been solved sooner. Mysteries are fun but they should IMO, have an expiration date. Liz's death would speed up that time table (at this point I think its a series finale thing). Yes it would be by the numbers at that point (Red gives them a blacklister for some ulterior motive, Red antics throughout, Blacklister caught/killed, Red's motive reveals, big laughs roll credits), but as the numerous Law & Order NCIS and CSI franchises have proved, find a formula stick to it and you'll reap rewards. No more "Wait, Red is really evil and I have to stop him!" plots, no Red loses fortune/winds up in jails/etc plots, etc. Just straight "Here's a blacklister, catch him for me". Yes there would be plot twists and a mystery here and there, but no more "Not THIS again!" plots.

All fantasy cause Liz is here to stay. shrugs Still haven't seen the most recent ep yet (perhaps after breakfast) but I read somewhere Aram somehow blames Red for Samar's condition and now has a secret vendetta against him? Soooo the show doesn't learned ANYTHING apparently.

Oh they very much can get rid of Liz NOW that's why I keep mentioning the delivery fakeout death. That would have been the perfect point to do it, cause at that point Red then had a relationship with the whole task force, as a unit and to varying degrees individually, even with his own foil, Ressler. And his deal is not dependent on Liz, at least not now. If she was dead his knowledge of blacklisters doesn't somehow die with her, so the government would still want a deal with him.

I've long accepted they WON'T kill Liz (begrudgingly), but oh yes they very much CAN. I remember making a post, though I reiterated a bit of it here, how it would have shot new life into the show and spinoff (sorry I loved the spinoff and saw its potential that's why I keep mentioning it ). Like you said, and I agree, Red is a loner, but at that point (the delivery death fakeout) he was the Batman type of loner: loner in his mind and out of stubbornness because he has an entire family he can rely on (the various Robins Oracle Batgirl etc). An overarching plot about how he realizes they're more than a tool to him, and vice versa he's more than a CI, and have been to each other all along, would have been nice to see. We get bits and pieces of it now (Red giving the head of Ressler's fiance's killer to Ressler, Red asking Aram to meet him at an open grave in the cemetary, etc) plus his friendship with Harold, it just would have been emphasized more.

And, perhaps ironically, the ratings would improve. Not cause Liz is dead, but because with her gone the mystery of who she is and who Red is would have been solved sooner. Mysteries are fun but they should IMO, have an expiration date. Liz's death would speed up that time table (at this point I think its a series finale thing). Yes it would be by the numbers at that point (Red gives them a blacklister for some ulterior motive, Red antics throughout, Blacklister caught/killed, Red's motive reveals, big laughs roll credits), but as the numerous Law & Order NCIS and CSI franchises have proved, find a formula stick to it and you'll reap rewards. No more "Wait, Red is really evil and I have to stop him!" plots, no Red loses fortune/winds up in jails/etc plots, etc. Just straight "Here's a blacklister, catch him for me". Yes there would be plot twists and a mystery here and there, but no more "Not THIS again!" plots.

All fantasy cause Liz is here to stay. shrugs Still haven't seen the most recent ep yet (perhaps after breakfast) but I read somewhere Aram somehow blames Red for Samar's condition and now has a secret vendetta against him? Soooo the show doesn't learned ANYTHING apparently.

The government would still want a deal with him, sure. But unless Red suddenly had a change of heart, he wouldn't necessarily want or need a deal with them. I mean, yes they could write it that way, since he obviously has used the task force for his own purposes. So they could write it like that. But it would be such a major departure from the main plot that it would almost be a different show. It would lose a large part of its appeal, the underlying mystery that has the audience wondering, trying to figure out, who is she to him, what really happened, who is he really?

I agree they can't continue the tease forever. And at times I felt like they were milking it far too much, for too long. I read that the original plan was to reveal the entire mystery within one or two seasons. I guess the initial success of the show, it was a big hit and had a lot of buzz, and it changed that quick reveal plan. So they began revealing pieces of the puzzle. And that was a good strategy, for a while. But they got clumsy about it.

There was one scene which summed up this problem for me back when Dembe and Red were in a car together, chasing Kate I think, and Dembe asked Red why he didn't just tell Liz. And Red basically said "I don't know". I thought, yeah, the writers have no answer to that one, they are just extending this, drawing it out more and more without seeming to have a clear idea where they were going with it. It does need an expiration date as you said.

But to me, I think that means the end of the series. I know you see it differently, and that's cool. I see what you're saying, I see your point. They could morph the show into a solve the blacklister problem format. That formula works.

The problem I see with that is that the Reddington the writers gave us is completely invested in this mysterious plot. He changed his identity for this purpose, built that criminal empire for that one purpose, and it has been the central driving theme of the show and his existence. It's been his reason for being.
It would become a different show.

I liked the spinoff also and was pissed it was canceled. I don't like Ryan as a doctor in his new show.

@RodimusConvoy said:

Aram...I feel like they [the writers] stop just short of making him comic relief, and thus he's the put-upon guy. He's awkward and has bad luck. I'm curious how the general audience feels about him, cause usually characters like that are adored and rooted for.

Yeah that's true. And mostly he is a likable character. But they write him to be such a wuss that I can't see him as ever being made an agent. He can't even drive a car (remember when Samar was captured by that CIA team and Aram jumped into the car to chase after them? Ressler yelled Aram and he shouted out "I can't drive", so he got out and let Ressler drive). He is sometimes afraid to use force to save innocent victims.

I am rewatching season 5 Ep16 The Capricorn Killer right now. That is the one where they found a witness who saw Ian Garvey kill the good cop who was helping Liz. The task force had discovered already that Garvey was the bad cop who killed Tom. They knew the witness was in danger and decided the FBI would take custody of him. And they sent Aram to get him.
Who in their right mind would send Aram to protect a witness??? especially when he was being held by US Marshal Garvey? NOBODY thinks Aram capable of providing protection. When he has to hold a pistol he looks like he is going to have an anxiety attack, or say "ewww, a gun".